Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: AuDoMaN on December 19, 2012, 09:50 pm
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I have been dealing with social anxiety for almost 5 years.
It started back towards the end of my 9th grade in high school. When I would go to school and talk to some people ( teachers, males, females, not everyone ), I would start to tremble and shake around them. I would become extremely nervous to the point where my speech was effected, my eyes dart around, my hands tremble, shake and lose all strength. My armpits sweat profusely with or without deodorant. Sweat runs down to my elbows and drips off in short sleeves. I don't pee well in public restrooms. I know that is all in my head because I can stand in front of the toilet at home and pretend I am in public and I can't pee. I can't pee with my dog watching. I'm a 19 year old virgin who has never been kissed, and a social nightmare.
I started going to therapy to figure out what caused these panic attacks. The therapist prescribed me Zoloft but it didn't seem to help at all. Neither did the therapy sessions.
So after months of therapy, I decided I didn't want to go anymore. I quit Zoloft and the sessions. I left high school to be home schooled. That was probably a mistake because hiding from the problem isn't going to help me get over it...
Over the years of going through high school (sophomore - senior), while keeping up with my school work, I smoked plenty of marijuana, ate psilocybin mushrooms a dozen times, and smoked on some DMT a little bit (never broke through on purpose...). I REALLY enjoyed my time alone. Buying drugs and illegal alcohol was my only excuse to socialize. If I had known about SR back then I wouldn't have even needed to do that.
My time alone now has to come to an end. I have to go to college. I still get the panic attacks I did back then, except now they are worse. I'm just used to them.
I can rationalize that there is no reason to have this anxiety, but it doesn't help. It's as if I'm shot up with a drug that causes psychosis when I'm in social situations. (Checking out items at stores, talking to old friends, driving). I have had the panic attacks happen to me while talking to my own Mom... That is uncommon but it has happened twice now.
I need a drug better than Zoloft to help me go to college or at least get settled in to where I don't need to take them. I was thinking Xanax, or something in that Xanax category... benzo something.
I've read about meth taking away all of your inhibitions but so does alcohol. I can't walk around drunk all the time or drive drunk. Hell I'd be willing to try meth if someone thought it could help. I'd rather not try meth because what I've read about how it feels, It would be a drug I would love. I would be a strong candidate for addiction. I'm not looking to ruin my life.
What would the kind people of SR forums recommend? Drug recommendations and advice wise.
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Meth? Jesus Christ, stims tend to increase anxiety.
The answer to your question depends on whether you want to be functional or you want to get fucked up.
If you want to stay functional, a beta-blocker like propranolol works wonders.
Otherwise, if you want to get fucked up, MDMA might help you connect to people.
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Functional definitely functional. I'll read about propranolol.
Thanks for reminding me I still need to try MDMA sometime in my life.
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Just don't take MDMA more often than once a month, it could make your anxiety worse. :)
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my experience with 4-Fluoroamphetamine has led me to see it's potential for adapting to social situations...
other than some jaw tension there aren't really any signs that show that you're under the influence of anything...
unlike meth or speed or cocaine the stimulation is actually quite mild...it actually feels more calming than stimulating...i likened it to being in a state of zen where my mind was clear but i wasn't bouncing off the walls...i felt like i was able to articulate my ideas and feelings without sugar coating it the way MDMA makes you do...
another thing that helps tremendously is to remember that the people that mind don't matter and the people that matter don't mind...
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XANAX HANDS DOWN, I've tried xoloft, zyprexa, cymbalta, even fucking yrtec, tell you have OCD and they'll throw more in the mix. This went on for alost 10 years. A methadone supplier said try this:giave me a lil' prurple football, that's the 1 mg, could even be 0.5. But it knocked me out(we were smashed.)Later , when stressing aabout some trug deal or wait etc , he said have axanax, yeh whatever. ten min later I WASNT pacing, I WASNT stressed, I WASN'T edgy, I WAS confident/optimistic it would come .IT DID.
In proportion these can be the most helpful tablet for the most most debilitating mental illness, but IS VERY EASY to dig in, if you have family in your home, get them to allocate you one at your preferred time of day, morning suits me, it gets me going , but a dose of over 10mg does that.
As you may have guessed , we've been at both ends of the spectrum, getting a bottle 50 pills,take some, a few more..... 2 days later i've woken up somewhere, my cars lost, i have ABSOLUTELY NO RECOLECTION(except for a fashback here & there)>
TO summarise:
It can really help , but dont let it control, YOU MUST stay in control, or you will be like me, I feel normal when I have about 15-20mg powder.
My missus didnt get as bad, but she's smart and pulled up, she's down to half a bar (1mg)a dayunless shes freking aabout something , then she will try oxazepam or diazepam 1st. All in all, im fucking proud of her, she's doing great, I hope I can reach that point one day.
AuDoMan, whatever you choose, give things a go, but not for too long, they can have a hold of ya before you know it.
Good luck
Merry Xmas.
HM
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I would recommend trying a substance called phenibut. It was discovered by the Russians in the 50's and they used to put it in the first aid kits they would send up with the cosmonauts. It's scheduled in Russia and probably some other Asian/east European countries, but isn't well known in the western world. It acts on one of the GABA receptors just like benzo's(xanax, valium, etc.) and it works really well for my anxiety but doesn't make you feel 'fucked up' at all, so you can be under the influence of it at work, while driving, etc.
My social anxiety is almost as bad as yours man, so you are definitely not alone. I know it's hard, and some days you don't want to, but keep up the fight.
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Are you confident talking to people if you get drunk out of interest?
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You might want to look into the so called "third generation ant-psychotics." I know they have a scary name, but in low doses can be effective and are really no different side effect wise than an SSRI like Zoloft, in fact they can have less side effects than ssris. Not initially though, the tend to make you very tired, which could help you sleep if you are having trouble sleeping, you take it before bedtime. Over time, the tiredness and appetite increases will drop off. You need to eat right and exercise when you take them bc they may cause you to eat more and gain weight.
The difference in how they work vs SSRIs like Zoloft is that they go to work on stabilizing dopamine levels rather than artificially boosting serotonin. I believe that they accomplish this by basically playing the role of artificial dopamine and binding to the receptor so your natural dopamine level is somewhat ignored.
A failure to properly regulate dopamine in the brain can come thru as either a mood disorder (lots of ups and downs, aka bipolar), and/or delusional/irrational thinking. Your anxiety sounds like its being driven by your thought patterns. I would recommend trying Zyprexa (generic Olanzapine). A SMALL dose. In fact the lowest dosage available is like 2.5 mg, very light. Take it at bed time for a few weeks. See if it helps your anxious thoughts and symptoms. If you tolerate it well and notice an improvement, up the dosage to 5 or even 10 mg. Higher than that would be unlikely useful for you. High doses are used for people who are really delusional and having wild emotional swings. Zyprexa (olanzapine) can be used off label for anxiety, but officially i think its approved for bipolar, & schizophrenia. But you don't need to be that to take it, it works for hard to treat anxiety too. I know all about this b/c its helped my sister with her anxiety. Yes they all recommended SSRI category drugs for her and she would also take Klonopin (a benzo). But benzos are really just a band aid, and a leaky one at that.
A word or two on benzos: you have a habitual anxiety problem. Benzos are at best, useful for very intermittent anxiety issues. For example if you are afraid of flying, or have a specific phobia that comes up infrequently. Benzos are good for infrequent panic attacks. If you take them you will feel good for a few weeks, then you will need higher and higher dosages. They are very addictive (esp for chronic anxiety) and you build tolerance very fast (within a week or two). These should be used as a complementary, occasional med, if at all. You however need a mainline treatment. Something that you can take every day and wont addict you, or cause serious withdrawals like benzos. Benzos are one of the few drug types that can kill you in withdrawal, coming off them cold can cause sever anxiety and lethal seizures. Again, look into a low dose of an anti-psychotic like zyprexa.
Zyprexa is classified as a Thienobenzodiazepines, which is similar to a Bezodiazapine (eg xannax, klonopin) but isnt addictive and has very little discontinuation symptoms. Here's the drug category on wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Thienobenzodiazepines
Hope you get well. Best advice i can give is find a good psychiatrist, some one who knows his/her meds really well. Consider a nurse practitioner too, if he/she has experience working in a mental hospital and has seen a lot of people take a lot of drugs first hand. They will know their meds better than some desk jocky treating people on an outpatient basis and only hearing once a month how the patient is doing and not observing first hand what does what.
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I wouldn't recommend an antipsychotic, but it may work for you. Like others in this thread, I'd recommend a benzo, but I wouldn't recommend buying it off the Road. Benzos can get out of hand and withdrawal from them can kill you. A benzo will help assuage your fears and calm you down and let you think logically. They can also give you a sense of well-being which will further help.
Stimulants help some people with social anxiety, but in a different way. There is more of a feeling of excitement and of being outgoing. Stimulants helped me when meeting new people, but they made me too hyper for my friends who knew me sober. It's a tradeoff that may work for you, but probably will not.
Talk to your doctor about Xanax or Valium. Say you've heard from friends who take them for social anxiety that they work very well. Don't mention their recreational value, it's a red flag. (Heck, avoid taking them recreationally anyway!)
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Sigh**
Alprazolam, bromazepam, clonazepam, diazepam, lorazepam.
Third generation anti-psychotics.. yikes. I have a good one listed if you like being a zombie.
Thienobenzodiazepines while you're on the subject: etizolam (nice and unscheduled and quite novel)
That is all.
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Are you confident talking to people if you get drunk out of interest?
Yes. I can pee in public bathrooms too, but the door has to be locked. If I'm sober the flow stops when I hear someone walking outside... How the fuck am I gonna survive at college? I'm just gonna deal with it no matter what that's how... If I can get a good enough education to earn a decent income I can just go home and smoke weed by myself everyday. Just the essentials and weed, that's all I need.
I'm thinking Xanax for the situations I know I will be nervous in, like the first day. After I get settled in I will see if I can go without anything. If I can't go without anything, there should be plenty of excuses to smoke weed or drink. Weed seems to exacerbate my social anxiety, so I need booze with it. Maybe I could start Zyprexa if I need to take something every day.
Benzos are one of the few drug types that can kill you in withdrawal, coming off them cold can cause sever anxiety and lethal seizures.
I could use only small doses no more than once or twice a week to avoid getting withdrawal symptoms. Definitely not the way I want to die, Xanax withdrawal... Its a band-aid and a leaky one at that but perhaps it could work for me.
Stimulants help some people with social anxiety, but in a different way. There is more of a feeling of excitement and of being outgoing. Stimulants helped me when meeting new people, but they made me too hyper for my friends who knew me sober. It's a tradeoff that may work for you, but probably will not.
Talk to your doctor about Xanax or Valium. Say you've heard from friends who take them for social anxiety that they work very well. Don't mention their recreational value, it's a red flag. (Heck, avoid taking them recreationally anyway!)
I need to go to the doctor again...
What stimulant would you recommend?
I get all the recreation I need from weed, alcohol, and the occasional psychedelic. Who knows...? I have never had any benzos before. I might really like benzos and become addicted.
Hope you get well. Best advice i can give is find a good psychiatrist, some one who knows his/her meds really well. Consider a nurse practitioner too, if he/she has experience working in a mental hospital and has seen a lot of people take a lot of drugs first hand. They will know their meds better than some desk jocky treating people on an outpatient basis and only hearing once a month how the patient is doing and not observing first hand what does what.
My Mom is a nurse practitioner. There is no chance in hell of her prescribing any drugs for me. I doubt a doctor would prescribe me a benzo. Last time it was all SSRIs and he just kept upping the dose. I could not tell a bit of difference from the SSRI.
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Stimulants help some people with social anxiety, but in a different way. There is more of a feeling of excitement and of being outgoing. Stimulants helped me when meeting new people, but they made me too hyper for my friends who knew me sober. It's a tradeoff that may work for you, but probably will not.
Talk to your doctor about Xanax or Valium. Say you've heard from friends who take them for social anxiety that they work very well. Don't mention their recreational value, it's a red flag. (Heck, avoid taking them recreationally anyway!)
I need to go to the doctor again...
What stimulant would you recommend?
I get all the recreation I need from weed, alcohol, and the occasional psychedelic. Who knows...? I have never had any benzos before. I might really like benzos and become addicted.
I would recommend dextroamphetamine because it has very little peripheral nervous system stimulation compared to other stimulants.
Whether or not you get addicted to benzos is mostly up to your own body chemistry, so to speak. You may find that benzos are more enjoyable than weed or alcohol or psychedelics based on the effect they have on you. It is also just as likely as it is with anyone else that you simply find a desire to repeat an enjoyable experience and get "psychologically" addicted that way. For instance, most stimulants aren't very physically addictive, but they're so rewarding that it's very easy to get addicted to the rush.
This is why I recommend seeking treatment rather than just medication. All the best to you :)
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++++1 for xanax
NO COMPETITION! Social anxiety is what xanax is prescribed for and its been show to help many people battle social anxiety.
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Never tried but yeah I heard with xannies you just don't give a fuck about anything.
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if you havent tried this already:
get some acid and keep some fast acting benzo's handy to abort.
work up slowly each week/fortnight untill your ego has dissolved enough to stop worring what people think about you and the sound of your piss.
on the 3rd hour of your first trip, play Pink Floyd - dark side of the moon.
mood brightening effects may last upto 2 years.
phenibut worked for me. buy empty capsules and pure powder and fill them yourself. you might not notice it working at first but take several 500mg capsules one day (5 or 6) and you'll feel slightly drunk and reasonably euphoric.
after this, give it a break for a few days then start with 1-2 capsules. since youve learned the drugs effects in the high dose you took, you'll now notice these effects at much lower doses.
sometimes i'd only fill half a capsule.
if you take this for 6 days in a row though, you might start to feel a little weird like a slight dysphoric headache, you'll feel like you need to take more. this will only add to the unpleasant effects that have built up. if this happens stop using for a few days. i suggest using one every 3 days since each dose seems to have a long halflife (see it as a slow-fading afterglow)
try L-theanine, the precursor to GABA (the brains 'relax' neurotransmitter). you can buy GABA but it seldom works since it cannot cross into the brain.
"B vitamin complex" that contains at least 40mg of B6 per tablet (compare them for best price/dosage) one that includes around 10mg of zinc is good too.
avoid multivitamins since theyre mostly cheap formulations that try to cram microdoses of everything in a single pill for an impressive ingredient list. - i take one by Solgar, but its high potency and renown as a good vitamin.
also buy magnesium and buy an expensive Pure Filtered Fish oil that doesnt taste funny or make your burps stink. for your EFA's -''Omegas".
research the effectiveness of these natural supplements for all kinds of mood disorders.
Do all of the last paragraph at once and you'll come back and thank me.
some + would be nice =)
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Hey AuDoMaN :)
Respect to you for your very real post.
There are a lot of good suggestions being made here, but a drug-based solution is not what you need (and your own experience also indicates that).
The emotional pattern you describe is recognizable to me and I know that it can be shifted. Anyone properly trained (and clinically skilled) in Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) will be able to help you - and probably pretty quickly. We're not talking years of therapy, but probably just a few sessions.
You will need to do some research to find someone who is good and really knows their stuff - but once you can find someone to work with it will be easy from there.
You are describing a classic stimulus-response pattern coded at the level of your neurology. It is like a program, and it runs the way it does. That program can be changed though and it is not complicated to do so.
PM me if you want some more input.
BG
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Yeah, like other posters here have already said, Propranolol works wonders. I take 40mg of it when I have to do something out of my immediate comfort zone, such as giving presentations, etc. To be honest, I could probably take more than that and feel even better since my tolerance is high right now. Metoprolol is also great but be careful not to take too much as it does severely lower your heart rate. But these both do wonders on keeping the physical symptoms of social anxiety under control, and I couldn't recommend them enough.
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I'm probably going to look into getting some Propranolol, and a benzo. Either Valium or Xanax. Maybe phenibut. I gotta read more about em.
Not to mix them, just wanna try both and see which I prefer.
The emotional pattern you describe is recognizable to me and I know that it can be shifted. Anyone properly trained (and clinically skilled) in Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) will be able to help you - and probably pretty quickly. We're not talking years of therapy, but probably just a few sessions.
You will need to do some research to find someone who is good and really knows their stuff - but once you can find someone to work with it will be easy from there.
You are describing a classic stimulus-response pattern coded at the level of your neurology. It is like a program, and it runs the way it does. That program can be changed though and it is not complicated to do so.
That sounds legit. I wonder how my program got so re-wired. I wasn't always like this. I could pee in the urinals in 8th grade. Halfway through 9th grade... BOOM, all these problems.
I consider all of my social problems to be minor on the scale of things. I would take social problems over serious ones like starving.
if you havent tried this already:
get some acid and keep some fast acting benzo's handy to abort.
work up slowly each week/fortnight untill your ego has dissolved enough to stop worring what people think about you and the sound of your piss.
on the 3rd hour of your first trip, play Pink Floyd - dark side of the moon.
mood brightening effects may last upto 2 years.
I have had some ego melting experiences on psilocybin mushrooms and I can honestly say that in my conscious mind I do not care what people think about me or the sound of my piss.
It might be what BlueGiraffe said. When I get into these situations I'm so used to reacting this way that it has become automatic. I can temporarily blow this out by using psychedelics, but when I come down I will revert to my 'program'.
I have never done any LSD but I am curious to try. I haven't tried pink floyd either. 10-12hrs seems like a long time to trip. Shrooms seemed like forever. The worst thing about shrooms was the nausea, but I wouldn't take any shroom rides back. Maybe I need to go back and break through on DMT instead of just taking 1-2 hits off a meth pipe. DMT breakthrough sounds craaazy. Off 1-2 hits of DMT I felt like I was at a funeral with crawling shroom visuals. That's the vibe I instantly felt, "great grandma's funeral".
I will look into getting some vitamins. I was thinking maybe throwing some 5-htp in there as well. I have heard nothing but good things about 5-htp.
Thanks everyone for all the kind words and advice. I would give some karma if I could.
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First Drugs gives you mad anxiety stop using drugs and take anxiety medicine safer is herbal anxiety meds.
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Hi . i had the /have the same problem! Xanax and Valium HANDS down. If you only take a medicinal dose n only when symptoms are worst, you'll be fine! Xanax are made for anxiety disorder. SSRIS do not work AT ALL for me and i become suicidal and make really bad impulsive decisions that have ruined my life and cant be made better. This is true of up to 20% of ppl who try them. They can be dangerous. They also need weaning from and you cant drink while taking them...for me id get more drunk. Okay , so...how to help the symptoms of AD. Recovery, Inc. !!!! "Mental health through Will Training" NOT what you'd think, its a cognitive behavioral training, self help and support group thing for your mind and life, like going to the gym for your nervous symptoms. You are gonna be able to first succeed at trivialities and that builds up the nervous system to act that way with progressively larger goals. It is programming yourself-u r n charge of what output u want, but no blame.Dr Low was a genius who died too early- the material is dated but I was a drs wife, have an MA, have several mental diagnoses but this method really works, no 12 steppin type thing either. It also increases self awareness in a Buddhist consciousness way, not n a feed the symptoms and they get worse scenario. Do you have any autistic signs? LHigh functioning Aspergers. (Me) Endorse urself for coming here! Herbs are fine for low level anxiety but perhaps you have panic atracks where you arent even in your mind, i would literally get lost, think i was dying (objectively i learned to train myself i wasn't - but it felt like that! They can help as an adjunct but are not usually strong enough to make the changes you seem to want. It took some intellectualization and emotionalization out of mythinking and thpoughts can be changed... it is the only self help that really helped in daily living. Are you A TREADER? dR lOWS BOOK, mENTAL HEALTH THRU wILL TRAINING. iTS FUNNY HISTORICALLY, LIKE THE LADY WHO GOT ANGRY TEMPER HAVING TO FILL THE SUGAR BOWL AND OTHER 50'S TYPE STUFF. bUT IF YOU WANT TO MASTER YOUR MENTAL HEALTH , PUT IT FOIRST, AND READ THAT BETWEEN THE LINES./ops cap lock and i gotta run. best to you. I seldom take any -pams now once a month or so at most for muscle spasm or cant sleep. I wish i had a group around here. Feel free to PM. "Every act of self control leads to self respect" Dr Low has a bunch of those that you can use to make your mental health your business. Interested in ur feedback and ENJOY college for what u can. i found Recovery when i was in college too. Graduated magna as a single parent of two young boystoo. Not bad for a "nervous patient."
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Meth will remove your anxiety, but you'll risk the chance of it coming back on the comedown. Sometimes twice as hard so i wouldn't advise using meth for social anxiety since it would be easy for your to slip into addiction.
Benzoids are a good suggestion, but they are also addictive. I would recommend valiums, xanaxs, or kolopins. Find which one works best for you. Personally i've found xanax to work better when i need instant relief and kolopins when i want to manage for longer periods of time. I hope you find relief. I know how bad anxiety can be and i hope you're able to tackle it.
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So the advice pointed out above is all great. I think the only thing to point out that really isn't mentioned much is the fact that since it's all in your head you can change that without drugs when you are ready to do so. I am 100% an introvert so I get it but ultimately how you feel is up to you. Drugs are fantastic at pushing you one way or another for short periods of times but they all have side effects, even those Dr. prescribed ones.
When I was a kid I used to be scared of heights. Not a little scared but full on crawl on the floor of a glass elevator and scream we are all going to die scared all the way up to the second floor. At about 11 I decided that was dumb, went to Knot's Berry Farm and walked onto the hell that was the parachute ride. I knew once I got on it, no mater how much I screamed and yelled or panicked that eventually the ride would end and more likely than not I would still be alive. It worked and now I jump out of planes and Mt. Bike across the Rockies. I wouldn't recommend anything quite that extreme since I suspect jumping out of the parachute ride, had it occurred to me, might have been a swell idea but the point is own it, face it, get over it.
If you get scared talking to people don't take some drug if you don't need to just go talk to more people. Join little collectives and let those expand. The advantage to being an introvert is that we live inside our heads and are by and large more intellectual than extraverts. My interactions with other people are not so much social as scientific. I use my brain to create a facade of someone like them and it works. I can talk to 2 people or 200. All it took was just a decision to turn things around. It might not come easy to an introvert but it can still be done. Most people describe me as a extrovert just because after a while it becomes too easy to put out that front. The difference between them and us really is that for them they do it because it comes naturally and for us we do it because the alternative is to sit alone in front of a computer and wonder what a real connection with another human being would be like.
Anyway, there are tons of drugs that will help mask the condition that you are far from alone in having but the only real cure I know of is to just do it till you own it. When that voice in your head tells you to cower and retreat just stand up and say something to someone. Eventually people will come to respect the fact that as an introvert you look at life differently and have unique insight into the human condition they will grow to appreciate more and more as you let it out.
Hope that wasn't too preachy. I just hate to see someone locked up on a drug to feel "normal" when you're already better than normal and just need to get over a few issues that make life suck right now.
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Hi!
I have a different suggestion. It literally changed my life with regards to social interactions, when I take it I change from a bit reserved, shy, untalkative. To the person in the room that makes everyone laugh, constantly surrounded by people listening to my stories, im sharp as a razor, someone can say something and in a flash i´ve got the whittyest answer, I can waltz up to the sexyest girl in a club and have her coming back to the car within a short space of time. Literally for me its a wonder drug. People even comment like your so clever so whitty etc when I´m on it...
Gabapentin
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listed to me... MEDAZEPAM... its a long lasting euphoric benzodiazepine diazepam like.. how can people not know this ? also TOFISOPAM energetic benzo and no addiction potential... people look these up if you don't know em because they're the real deal and i have experience with alot top quality benzos.
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listed to me... MEDAZEPAM... its a long lasting euphoric benzodiazepine diazepam like.. how can people not know this ? also TOFISOPAM energetic benzo and no addiction potential... people look these up if you don't know em because they're the real deal and i have experience with alot top quality benzos.
Do any SR sellers stock them?
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does xanax actually cure the problem over time?
or is it just hiding the problem until they are no longer on it
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I just take a couple hits of Sour Diesel.
IME, Benzos just mask the problem, and the rebound can be pretty bad sometimes.
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for me dextroamphetamine is the best for social anxiety, at least until the come-down, then it increases social anxiety.
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i think those anti-psychotics are the answer. but i have no experience with them.
uppers can cause horrible anxiety and benzos are very addictive.
i think this site is not the best place for you to get medication. its not that reliable.
go see your doctor tell him/her that the pills are not working even if you up the dose and you want something else. get prescription drugs. you need a reliable source.
what happens if you are out and the site goes down? maybe your connect stops sellin?
don't be afraid to talk with your doctor.
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does xanax actually cure the problem over time?
or is it just hiding the problem until they are no longer on it
There's really kind of two schools of thought on that. Xanax will lower the anxiety while dealing with social encounters thus making them easier. It is possible that the brain will take the que that social situations really aren't that bad after a few successful encounters and the Xanax wouldn't be needed as the confidence would be there to deal with the socialization on their own. Unfortunately, the brain is MUCH more likely to just connect the easy social interactions with the Xanax and reinforce the conditioning that social encounters are ONLY comfortable on the drug thus making them even harder without it.
If someone took Xanax as a tool to cure themselves of social anxiety it would probably be useful. I am going to take 2mg and go talk to some strangers. Next time I'll do it on 1mg and then 5. mg. But it has to be a forced exposure to rewire the established conditioning response not a drug you take to temporarily circumvent the response you have and are keeping in place. The brain can adapt and change pretty fluidly but it is always going to take the path of least resistance. If 2mg of Xanax makes me happy and comfortable than I am far more likely to just drop a bar than face the issue for which I am taking it. That means you don't get cured you just get a band-aid for as long as you can afford it while every time you take it you reinforce the idea that you can't be social without it.
Not trying to dis Xanax, it really will help people through social issues like this. I just know from experience that forcing my way past debilitating cycles like this has a better return on investment than drugs to "treat" it.
Long Live the Road!
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if you havent tried this already:
get some acid and keep some fast acting benzo's handy to abort.
work up slowly each week/fortnight untill your ego has dissolved enough to stop worring what people think about you and the sound of your piss.
on the 3rd hour of your first trip, play Pink Floyd - dark side of the moon.
mood brightening effects may last upto 2 years.
I have had some ego melting experiences on psilocybin mushrooms and I can honestly say that in my conscious mind I do not care what people think about me or the sound of my piss.
It might be what BlueGiraffe said. When I get into these situations I'm so used to reacting this way that it has become automatic. I can temporarily blow this out by using psychedelics, but when I come down I will revert to my 'program'.
I have never done any LSD but I am curious to try. I haven't tried pink floyd either. 10-12hrs seems like a long time to trip. Shrooms seemed like forever. The worst thing about shrooms was the nausea, but I wouldn't take any shroom rides back. Maybe I need to go back and break through on DMT instead of just taking 1-2 hits off a meth pipe. DMT breakthrough sounds craaazy. Off 1-2 hits of DMT I felt like I was at a funeral with crawling shroom visuals. That's the vibe I instantly felt, "great grandma's funeral".
I will look into getting some vitamins. I was thinking maybe throwing some 5-htp in there as well. I have heard nothing but good things about 5-htp.
Thanks everyone for all the kind words and advice. I would give some karma if I could.
Shrooms are fun but they twist reality too much, like alice in wonderland when she gets bigger and smaller etc.
theyre great for a fun time (crying with laughter) and has recently been studied for end of life/near death-terminal illness related anxiety.
LSD on the other hand has been studied in psychotherapy for decades, It makes everything about the universe seem crystal clear.
you'll find solutions to your every day problems because you can think outside the box and approach your problems as an outsider.
No nausea here, It feels as if the compound was created by "god."
I've just ordered another hundered avatar hits.
You must try it, I did shrooms first and wasnt too happy about the thought of an LSD trip being longer.
these are very different substances, I wish i would have tried LSD first because my first shroom experiences left me feeling depressed for a few days after (but all the laughing was worth it)
I think the higher self-awareness you get with this drug is something else
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please Try Phenibut(look it up on forums, alot of bodybuilding enthusiasts use it to wind down after taking performance enhancers. do this before you try benzo's. whilst i only used benzo's to help with large family gatherings, they had a definate effect on my memory to the point where i couldnt remember my closest family members first names(cousins, aunts, etc) and i'd say the most INAPPROPRIATE things without even realising or later remembering.
And i ended up having worse anxiety when i didn't take them on family occasions because i was used to being wrapped in a blanket.
The only thing better for anxiety was Lyrica. It made me chatty, Better appetite, Relaxed... try to speak to your doctor about anxiety and specifically ask about the newer drugs that "have less potential for abuse" - You'll be tried on some of the newer GABA-ergic medications, and if those don't work for you, he's more likely to offer you the old, stronger but less suitable type benzo meds as you've already shown that you have no interest in abusing those drugs.
I'd send a whole box of Lyrica tablets to anyone who would trust me with their address, but since that's not going to happen i might aswell wait untill i become a vendor and offer it as out in free samples.
You need to get over your anxiety naturally, instead of relying on controlled prescription drugs unless you have a script for them. what ive suggested is all you need really.
I second learning NLP. also try to find some books on People Tells and reading body language, this is very helpful to know and makes you feel more in control of most social situations. (lots of downloadable ebooks around)
DMT can cause lasting anxiety if you have have a bad trip. wait untill you're in a better mindset.
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listed to me... MEDAZEPAM... its a long lasting euphoric benzodiazepine diazepam like.. how can people not know this ? also TOFISOPAM energetic benzo and no addiction potential... people look these up if you don't know em because they're the real deal and i have experience with alot top quality benzos.
Do any SR sellers stock them?
i don't know. if you want to try them I can sell them without vendor acc though because I only get scripts. i will send free sample to you if interested and if you in eu union.
or we could trade for 0.5g of opium. i could send first.
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if i were you, i would try the natural route first. no sense messing with your brain chemistry via heavy pharmaceuticals if it's not absolutely necessary. cannabis can definitely be good for anxiety, but it's not for everyone. i would also suggest trying kratom or kava.
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I've got an idea, how about in the future if you don't have a disorder or a health issue or done medical research on said health issues , then when someone is asking about a topic relating to the health issue you not post your opinion.
This thread is all over the place.
müslix is the only person in this thread that has the closest post to the correct manner to answer the topic..
Sure the thread asks what drug is good for social anxiety, well that's a simple answer...anti-anxiety meds or Benzodiazapines.
How many posters thought before given their opinion as to what the OP should take, that the question is a loaded one with a very hard to answer because everyone's chemical balances and genetics are different?
So instead of giving my opinion to OP I'll just tell you my story.
I am an introvert. I have Generalized and Social Anxiety disorders, I have Panic disorder. I have mild depression and a slight OCD. I had Post Traumatic Stress Disorder for over 4 years. Out of all those medical conditions only one I've been able to overcome...PTSD. All my other disorders are genetic, my mother has GAD and I was born with 4x the anxiety defects in my DNA than my mother. Since I have it genetically I will ALWAYS have to take medications for them.
I lived the first 22 years of my life undiagnosed with these disorders and because of that I set my life on a path i neither knew why or where I was to go because of my choices. My disorders made me an introvert and because of that I began my path to drugs. I first dealt with my panic attacks and anxiety as everyone with these disorders does. A biological mechanism know as the "fight or flight" response to situations on a daily basis was my first attempt to deal with the madness in my mind and how I interacted with other people. I always choose flight as it removed me from the situation or premeditated thought process to prevent the situation before it happened. Well that will only do for so long, then I turned to alcohol and drugs at 15 to cope with society and to appear to fit in with others. So by 16 I was the guy that could get alcohol,weed,LSD,pills for all the other kids my age, essentially a drug dealer...I stayed that til I was 24 years old.
Sometime around my 21st birthday I got really into tranquilizers, hmmm I wonder why, lol. Well I decided that tranquilizers gave me social lubricant and also held all my disorders at bay. So I did the #1 biggest life changer of my life...I researched the symptoms for why tranquilizers were prescribed. What I found was a toll road to my disorders in the form of benzos, specifically xanax, Sadly this is just the beginning of how drugs changed my life forever with a double edged solution.....Part 2 will be posted on Monday.
X)
nomad
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After reading all the above I think I would like to experience the Xanax thing myself. I feel for you matey, it's not fun having anxiety and feeling restrained in some situations. I'm a semi-introvert meaning I can fake it well in large groups/settings. I've always felt I've been missing out on something though when I can't force myself to feel at ease in those situations. Best of luck to you and I hope you can find your path..... don't give up!
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That's PTSD syndrome and social anxiety is only the consequences of the unconscious psychological trauma.
The MDMA therapy is supposed to deal with this issue by definition. Up to 3-5 sessions to get a breakthrough.
Look for some more information at maps.org and their research in progress. Personally MDMA has helped me a lot.
I can also speak for Phenibut (GABA derivative). Not well known medicine but very unique and quite affordable.
Have been researching this substance for more than 3 years. Can be very helpful but not as powerful as MDMA of course.
Have really nothing to say about benzos, not enough personal experience or negative one..
But i wouldn't suppose they do any long term therapeutic effect. Too mainstream to be true.
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LOL on how many answers you get in the drug forum when you ask "which drug should I take"
I agree with using Xanax for it's intended purpose of lessening anxiety. -- the shit works.
Here is my off-use idea:
When I take Nuvigil or Provigil I find myself more talkative and quite entertaining at times.
Give it a try.
MDMA would probably do it but you can't do that every day.
Modzi
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For me, many drugs greatly reduce social anxiety as well as other types of anxiety. The ones I take most commonly are diazepam (valium or blues), xanax and klonopin. I don't take these drugs every day or even every week sometimes and I never combine them with each other, but I find they all work great for relieving all types of anxiety including social anxiety in different ways. The effects always wear off though so if you always suffer from social anxiety, they won't cure it for good or really help you on days when you haven't taken the pill. I recommend trying out these drugs and seeing how they work for you, but just be careful with your dosages and don't overuse them, as they can be very addictive if you pop them too much. I know a lot of people who take them way too much and while most of them won't admit it, it's pretty obvious they have a problem and couldn't just stop taking the benzos without having a breakdown. If you have trouble meeting people or being with groups I could see these drugs greatly helping with breaking the ice because they really do make you way more uninhibited and sociable whilst you're on them. So benzos like xanax and valium could be very useful for making introductions and getting to know people better.
Personally I also find small to moderate doses of MDMA and Ketamine to have very effective properties in relieving all kinds of anxiety in a more therapeutic way. For me they're recreational or party drugs though so I don't exactly take them for that, it's just a nice side effect. I have done a few lines of ketamine on a few occasions though before stressful presentations and found that it definitely relieved the tension without it being obvious I'm on something. MDMA is very nice but when I take it it's always painfully obvious I'm tripping balls. Unlike with prescription drugs which feel like a temporary but very effective fix, I do believe I've become more sociable and friendly overall ever since I first did MDMA.
I don't have a significant amount of social anxiety normally if I'm just hanging out with people but work can be stressful because I have so many responsibilities and people to manage, which causes all kinds of anxiety from time to time which is the main reason why I medicate for it. For example if I know I have to present slides to about a hundred people for a half hour or so and then do Q & A, I'll often take a little something beforehand to help me keep my train of thought going more steady and also to ease the potential discomfort or awkwardness.
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listed to me... MEDAZEPAM... its a long lasting euphoric benzodiazepine diazepam like.. how can people not know this ? also TOFISOPAM energetic benzo and no addiction potential... people look these up if you don't know em because they're the real deal and i have experience with alot top quality benzos.
Do any SR sellers stock them?
i don't know. if you want to try them I can sell them without vendor acc though because I only get scripts. i will send free sample to you if interested and if you in eu union.
or we could trade for 0.5g of opium. i could send first.
Ok, PM me
Ace
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LOL on how many answers you get in the drug forum when you ask "which drug should I take"
I agree with using Xanax for it's intended purpose of lessening anxiety. -- the shit works.
Here is my off-use idea:
When I take Nuvigil or Provigil I find myself more talkative and quite entertaining at times.
Give it a try.
MDMA would probably do it but you can't do that every day.
Modzi
Modafinil (provigil) gives me horrible jitters and anxiety. I am glad it works for you but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone with anxiety issues.
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adderall makes me talk a lot more thats for sure. most stims do. They seem to work.
I dont have experience with others really.
for me i think it has to do with your ego maybe
some good posts in this thread for sure.
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Booze, booze, booze.
Supplemented with crystal meth or cocaine to keep your energy up! (depending on budget)
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MDMA removes all of my boundaries with people, and my environment. This could be good and bad. I did some pretty,weird things that I do not care to repeat any time soon, but I just couldn't stop talking to people on the internet, on the phone, and on webcam on omegle, and I'm the loner type.
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MDMA removes all of my boundaries with people, and my environment. This could be good and bad. I did some pretty,weird things that I do not care to repeat any time soon, but I just couldn't stop talking to people on the internet, on the phone, and on webcam on omegle, and I'm the loner type.
Yeah man, this can work against you I find.
As when the drug wears off you remember and realize how silly and off-your-face you might have acted, especially in the presence of narks or straight-edgers.
Just go easy and try to only become a drooling, rolling eyed mess in the presence of like minded folks.
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Clomipramine + Fluvoxamine/Fluoxetine. One inhibits the enzyme responsible for breaking the other's down. Clomipramine is incredibly potent as a SERT inhibitor and if you have a CYP1A2/2D6 inhibitor like Fluvoxamine or Fluoxetine, it forms much less of the the metabolite desmethylclomipramine, a potent NRI.
That being said, take that, throw on chronic klonopin (0.5mg or 1mg tid, depending on your tolerance), and you're set for life.
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Hey man first off I just wanna let you know, you're not alone and you will figure out a solution one day! I promise.
I've been battling with it for a couple years now and I've learned quite a deal about mental illness and the different treatment approaches for it.
The tough thing, is that what works for one person, may not work at all or may be harmful for another person. It comes down to the individual.
Unfortunately, I've had to do a lot of experimenting, but I've almost got it figured out.
Be very careful in your journey of figuring out a solution for your problem, because some of the things you may try to do to help yourself, may hurt you badly. Dealing with mental problems and trying to treat them can often force you into situations where you are playing with fire(such as trying new medications).
I see a lot of people here are recommending stimulants. In my experience, those only made things 10x worse. It took me weeks to recover from some of the things I tried like MDMA and Psychedelics. I was institutionalized for a few days after taking 2c.
I tried amphetamines(adhd meds), vyvanse, adderal, etc(they're all the same IMO). For about a week it worked because I think I was just getting
high off them, but after that they stopped giving me the feeling of euphoria and all it was, was heart palpitations and insomnia.
I do coke here and there, but it's not any solution at all whatsoever for SA. It is short lasting and the come down will make you wish you didn't do it. I'll only touch it if it's pure rock. Plus coke is just too damn expensive and has too many effects on your health(not that other drugs don't, but coke is real bad because cokeheads need to do it constantly to stay satisfied and you build a tolerance to it as quick as a motherfucker.)
I've tried some of the tough psych meds. I've tried seroquel, lithium and respiridone.
In my experience all they did was make me sleepy and zombied for a couple weeks and shortly after I grew a tolerance to them and they didn't
do anything anymore. Luckily I didn't have any crazy withdrawals coming off of them, but believe me it is very possible! Some people who go on those meds get stuck on them for life because they addiction is so bad.
Anti-depressants do help a lot of people, but for me they were just terrible. I've tried SSRIs, SNRIs and STRIs. I kept trying one brand after another. None of them worked, in fact they gave me more energy which made things worst. The latest one I came off of gave me terrible withdrawals and I was a terrible mental case for about 2 weeks(lexapro).
I've found in times of desperation that opiates are amazing for anxiety, but they shouldn't be a permanent solution. You're tolerance will grow quick(even quicker than benzos) and then you can become addicted and will have a substance addiction issue added on to your mental problems.
Benzos are amazing, but don't abuse them. I've found that once you get a tolerance to them, you almost never lose it(or at least it'll never go completely back to the way it was).
Use the least amount you need, as little as possible. To avoid taking too much being that they can be expensive I'll sometimes have a beer or 2 with my benzos.
If you really wanna be smart and play it super safe before exploring all these above mentioned options, try some of these things, they may not help if your situation is as severe as you say(they didn't work TOO great for me, but helped a little bit) and your case sounds similar to mine.
If you're wondering about some of the weird names I'm about to spit out, they're herbal meds.
- Acupuncture
- Massage Therapy
- Yoga
- Exercise(sports, etc)
- Try doing physical activites with other people, like playing sports, etc. You'll be too busy moving your body to get nervous in the first place,
and this can help you get used to being around people.
- Valerian Root(natural anxyioltic)
- L- Theanine (natural anxyioltic)
- St Johns Wort(natural SNRI)
- 5-HTP(natural SSRI)
- L-Dopa or Leva Dopa (dopamine inhibitor often used to treat parkinsons because it helps reduce activity in the amygdala which is the area of the brain that causes twitching. it's the fight or flight part of the brain.)
- Lecithin
If you smoke, try quitting smoking for a while(if you can), I know smoking usually helps anxiety but some studies have suggested otherwise.
Then there's pot, well pot is a funny one. In most people it helps relieve anxiety, but in some people(like myself) it makes it worse. Giving it a try won't hurt though(not nearly as bad as most of the harder drugs I mentioned earlier.)
Regarding doctors, start with your physician. Get blood work done, make sure to tell your regular doctor everything you're experiencing so he can make sure there's nothing physically wrong with you. Doing this first is ESSENTIAL. Don't start taking meds, drugs(whatever they're the same) before you know there's nothing physically wrong with you. After that, go to a NEUROLOGIST. Psychiatry is almost like philosophy in my opinion. It's all based on studies, statistics and in a way guessing. They almost don't know how their medications work half the time(the pharm companies work very hard to cover this kind of stuff up) and the success of the meds they give you can often be as accurate as an amature throwing darts. Most of the time they just listen to your symptoms and used their magic ball to diagnose you.
Neurologists in my opinion are real doctors, they check your whole CNS(Central Nervous System) and look for physical evidence. Neurology is going to take over psychiatry one day if you ask me. They are doctors unlike psychiatrists who are almost like "magicians".
Often they are pill pushers and will just shove whatever drug down your throat that is making them money. Going directly to psychiatrists can be a bad idea because lots of time they don't think to check you out physically.
Don't use what I said as a handguide for anxiety, like I said everything is circumstantial. I could've wrote a lot more, but at this point you're probably tired of reading already. Sorry for the misspelling and the terrible organization. If you have any questions feel free to PM me, I've been through hell with anxiety so I would be more than happy to help someone avoid experiencing some of the things that I did in trying to find help.
Remember your young, so a lot of it is growing pains. That's what 50% of my problem was too. Over time(you might have to hang in there for a while though), you will naturally grow out of it. You will learn that whatever makes you nervous(perhaps guilty or shameful) is probably insignificant, and despite what people say(especially tough crowds like teens/young adults) very little really matters in this world. Not enough to socially de-abilitate a person. Often times people will not stand up for you or by your thoughts/opinions/perception. Eventually you'll become your own best friend and that will become your shield because no matter what how other people think of you/ treat you, you will be on your own side, simply you just won't give a fuck! :)
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I too have attempted to address social anxiety in myriad of ways, with a limited amount of drugs, largely benzos and stims, seemingly the 2 most popular category of drugs suggested. personally, i've found benzos to be sedating to the point that I've personally found it more useful for sleeping purposes. with stims, i've found it to actually create more anxiety in the long run (it is no wonder that people on large doses of adderall seem to also possess significant paranoia as they begin to come down from perhaps an initial calming sensation)
the 2 most sustainable solution (and of course, since we are talking about drugs aka chemicals, I humbly acknowledge that yes, I mean sustainable in the most relative sense, and only to a certain degree) for me, something one would take to start the day off:
1. Phenibut (as someone mentioned in a post earlier; easy to obtain online; in addition to a non-sedating relief of anxiety, also notice a subtle piracetam-like cognitive enhancements in things like creativity, etc; I believe many people place Phenibut in the Nootropic section for that reason)
2. Tramadol (@ small doeses, separated between 2 days, especially if the tramadol is Extended Release; I personally think tramadol is underrated, and is in a truly unique class of opiate-based drugs; allows me to have a calm, but stimulating sense of well being that I'm sure many of us seek in the morning, especially monday mornings with a whole work week ahead of us)
but alas, both can initiate addiction, as with most drugs surely, but as mentioned earlier, for both phenibut and tramadol I've found that if one is disciplined enough to separate their doses between lets say around 1-2 days (even do a rotation between phenibut and tramadol), that tolerance levels appear to be far more buffered than the other more traditional opiates/adhd stims
in fact, i've actually found taking phenibut or tramadol with some of the aformentioned stims through out the day aids tremendously in mitigating much of the potential anxiety levels potentially triggered by increased bpm symptoms normally associated with significant dosage of adhd meds
for those SR members who have far more biochemical and/or objective knowledge than I regarding my tentative advice, I will be more than happy to hear your response, criticisms, and/or words of caution
best regards
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I too have attempted to address social anxiety in myriad of ways, with a limited amount of drugs, largely benzos and stims, seemingly the 2 most popular category of drugs suggested. personally, i've found benzos to be sedating to the point that I've personally found it more useful for sleeping purposes. with stims, i've found it to actually create more anxiety in the long run (it is no wonder that people on large doses of adderall seem to also possess significant paranoia as they begin to come down from perhaps an initial calming sensation)
the 2 most sustainable solution (and of course, since we are talking about drugs aka chemicals, I humbly acknowledge that yes, I mean sustainable in the most relative sense, and only to a certain degree) for me, something one would take to start the day off:
1. Phenibut (as someone mentioned in a post earlier; easy to obtain online; in addition to a non-sedating relief of anxiety, also notice a subtle piracetam-like cognitive enhancements in things like creativity, etc; I believe many people place Phenibut in the Nootropic section for that reason)
2. Tramadol (@ small doeses, separated between 2 days, especially if the tramadol is Extended Release; I personally think tramadol is underrated, and is in a truly unique class of opiate-based drugs; allows me to have a calm, but stimulating sense of well being that I'm sure many of us seek in the morning, especially monday mornings with a whole work week ahead of us)
but alas, both can initiate addiction, as with most drugs surely, but as mentioned earlier, for both phenibut and tramadol I've found that if one is disciplined enough to separate their doses between lets say around 1-2 days (even do a rotation between phenibut and tramadol), that tolerance levels appear to be far more buffered than the other more traditional opiates/adhd stims
in fact, i've actually found taking phenibut or tramadol with some of the aformentioned stims through out the day aids tremendously in mitigating much of the potential anxiety levels potentially triggered by increased bpm symptoms normally associated with significant dosage of adhd meds
for those SR members who have far more biochemical and/or objective knowledge than I regarding my tentative advice, I will be more than happy to hear your response, criticisms, and/or words of caution
best regards
I'm glad this topic was brought up I should've brought up a discussion like this months ago It's interesting hearing everyones opinions, advice and experiences. What is Phenibut? I've never heard of it before. And what's the deal with the tramadol, it's like a mixture between an opiate and anti-depressant right? But the weakest form of opiates right? After reading the description of my drug history that I just posted would you say it's probably too weak for me at this point?
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I have horrible social anxiety and I have found that xanax has helped me tremendously. However, be very careful and DO NOT develop an addiction to them, as I've heard the withdrawals are worse than opiates. Even opiates in my experience, have helped with my anxiety, being that they are so soothing and relaxing. Social anxiety is crippling, and I wish you the best my friend. Good luck.
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@xblackbladex
I must admit, I have not yet had the fortuitous opportunity to try MDMA, coke, and the likes
so perhaps my suggestions may be limited in scope, but I used to be a rather frequent user of the adhd meds such as adderall, and I still use benzos today (I prefer valium over xanax personally), but as mentioned earlier, only at night as I prepare to come down for the night before sleep I suppose
but to answer your questions, maybe "weak" is perhaps the way to go, albeit its counter intuitive implications; will attempt to divulge on that later in the post.
Phenibut, from the broad readings I've encountered online, is a synthetic invention from the Russians, but essentially a derivative of GABA, so many symptoms associated with the notorious GABA can be associated with Phenibut; Phenibut is however largely marketed (commercially?) as a muscle relaxer however, and yes, one will feel a rather subtle effects of muscle relxations from Phenibut, but I would argue Valium is known to trigger similar relaxant properties as well
with Tramadol, I think you have the general concept right, that it is yet another synthetic invention that is, at the least, a hybrid between opiates and antidepressant properties (with its ability to trigger serotonin release); the key thing here, for me, anyways is that it is a weak agonist of the opioid receptors, which harmonizes well with my fundamental philosophy of "moderation of everything", with the added benefit of serotonin-induced euphoria that one seems to feel with tramadol, but for a much longer period of time than the traditional painkillers. the biochemical reaction behind tramadol has yet to be nailed down, but I've come to, at least for now, place faith in a truly subjective correlation between sustainable effects of a particular drug and the intensity in which the drug initially activates the receptors responsible for one's desired effects. we all possess a limited set of receptors, and temporal release/uptake of neurotransmitters, ultimately responsible for tolerance, etc
I hope I didn't confuse you more with that description, I feel other SR members can provide a far more biochemically sound explanation behind my subjective experiences with Phenibut and tramadol (or maybe those empirically inclined individuals have remained within the Longecity community lol)
Lastly, before I hit the sack (have to open the office bright and early tomorrow morning...) you might also be interested in an Erwoid description of one's subjective experience with tramadol that has for one reason or another always lingered in the back of mind as a truly insightful relay of one's experience with tramadol (I'm sure there are inspiring Phenibut experiences on there as well): https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=23886
disclaimer: I've also encountered enough posts where tramadol is also significantly variable in benefits across different people with different biochemistry and body type; perhaps that should not be a novel revelation, but I often times forget that, so perhaps I am one of those lucky ones who, at least for now, react favorably towards Phenibut and Tramadol
best regards
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Depending on the person yes benzo withdrawals often are worse than opiate withdrawals. Many times heavy benzo addicts cannot withdrawal at home(opposed to their opiate addict counterparts) because they can have seizures and other serious complications.
Leeds I got the basic jiszt of what you were saying. They still barely know how a lot of these medications work(especially the psych meds). I'm definitely interested in these said medications and will give them a try soon.
The Tramdol sounds a lot like how SNRI's are supposed to work(like effexor), triggering both serotonin and dopamine receptors, except the SNRI's(selective norepenephrine reuptake inhibitors) really don't work lol.
The only thing I'm worried about is the withdrawals, because I've had terrible experiences with withdrawals from anti-depressants, will Tramadol give me similar withdrawals?(IE: Depression, Anxiety, Brain Shocks, Racing thoughts, etc)
Is the Phenibut cheap and am I better off getting it off SR or an online pharm? If so what site is reliable? I've been hearing a lot of good things about this site buyanychem.com or org I think it is lately, I wonder if it's on there.
Thanks.
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Lorazepam (Ativan) is probably one of the most effective benzodiazepines for social anxiety. It's probably one of the most effective medications prescribed for anxiety. It has far less sedation, ataxia, fatigue, drowsiness, and side effects in general than the majority of benzodiazepines, however it is one of the least recreational. I find that it causes the least memory problems - but keep in mind that all benzos are amnesic to an extent.
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@cimicon
yes, I agree, Ativan is probably the benzo that I've tried (have not yet tried the ever popular Klonopins, looking to try it sometime in the near future) that had the least amount of sedating side effects, and therefore, a benzo that may be used effectively for a productive day; I will attempt to relay my personal experience with Klonopins once I have the chance to give them a shot
@xblackbladex
Phenibut can be purchased from vendors such as Amazon (although Piracetam apparently has been recently pulled off the shelves, yet Noopept is still on there; so expect fluctuations in availability with many of these nootropic based products); most reliable vendor I think (and I'm sure many others would agree, especially if you reside in the US) is Smart Powders (I've been following Reddit moderator Gwern, he has a fantastic guide on using SR, and he would also testify to Smart Powder's unprecedented price for quantity and quality of myriad nootropic items, including Phenibut)
in regards to Tramadol, if you reside in the US, I would personally scrap the various US based overnight-shipping vendors and stick with SR vendors here, especially as of late; according to recent forum posts elsewhere (i.e. Pharmacy reviewer), Tramadol seems to have drawn more attention from the dea more than ever before, especially since for some states do not have Tramadol scheduled as a controlled substance, yet anyways. Some do, some don't, and in response, these US based vendors appear to have restricted their shipping to only those states that have not yet scheduled Tramadol. As we speak, I believe Tramadol is being investigated by many US states in deciding whether they should be controlled or not. Before I used to be relatively comfortable in purchasing them from IOPs, hedging my purchases with the knowledge that at least my state does not have this drug scheduled as a controlled substance. However, thats why I find SR to be far superior, and will be even more valuable as I think IOPs will begin to grow more obsolete and presumably revert to becoming bulk vendors here in SR.
*bu try not gt discouraged from the frantic posts I have been encountering on Pharm reviewer where many claim there is now a shortage of Tramadol supply from these IOPs, etc; I think much of it is sheer paranoia, one just has to purchase from the right IOP and be patient with the wait time; but again, SR seems to override many of those concerns
I will say that one IOP I've found to be a largely reliable vendor (for now at least), although you have to have patience as they take roughly 2 weeks shipping- much like other IOPs located outside the US) for tramadol is the Airmail group i.e. Airmailmeds, etc. They claim to have a physician on hand to give you a prescription upon submitting your order, if they deem your description of your symptoms to be appropriate that is. Lastly, they do have a cap in how much one can order, 180 tablets per order I believe, which I find to be completely reasonable, as I'm sure an unspoken rule of thumb in ordering any sort of medication from any vendor would be to purchase in moderate amounts; hope that helps :)
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To the guy who mentioned that 5-HTP is a natural SSRI... it is not. It is a precursor to serotonin, and really shouldn't be supplemented normally.
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I deleted my long ass post on this subject based on facts an real people who went through this, since no one bothers to read this here anyway.
Instead I give only one advice: There is no such thing as a magic bullet that works for everyone. No therapy, no med, no drug, nothing.
Everyone who claims otherwise (like half the thread) is a moron for not thinking about how drugs have different effects on different people.
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only speaking from my experience but--
MDMA -- eliminates all social boundaries, but I value my brain too much to be using this drug regularly. I'll only take it once a year at most.
LSD -- When I took enough to experience ego death, it completely eliminated all anxiety. It was better even than my first MDMA experience. Not recommended for social anxiety because it doesn't consistently produce this effect. Also, you should be very experienced with LSD first before using it in a social setting
Adderall, dexedrine, meth -- used to work wonderfully, but now only works for two hours or so, then the come-down is so bad that I regret taking it. Like MDMA, these drugs are neurotoxic
Cocaine -- bad come down, and bad for health
Ativan and other benzos -- neurotoxic, possibly carcinogenic.
Marijuana -- at first marijuana increased social anxiety, but after becoming a regular pot smoker, it now diminishes my social anxiety. Unfortunately, it also makes me seem dumber. Slow response times in conversations, I forget words that I know, etc.
Ketamine -- reduces social anxiety, but it doesn't make me sociable, and seems to make me incoherent
Alcohol -- reduces social anxiety to some extent (but not as much as amphetamines), but also makes me feel sluggish and sedated. I don't like it.
Caffeine -- increases social anxiety. It actually took me a long time to realise this. If you drink coffee regularly and experience social anxiety, try to abstain from caffeine for a while
adderall/dexedrine + alcohol: eliminates social anxiety more effectively than either drug by itself, but bad come-down and paranoia
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Just don't take MDMA more often than once a month, it could make your anxiety worse. :)
This is not true at all. You can erase bad mood after MDMA taking 5-HTP.
MDMD is curently using for treatment at:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/16/mdma-drug-experiment-channel-4
http://www.maps.org/research/mdma/
So If you want people uninformed, do not do this.
Regarding the original post.
Use Xanax- but be aware it is highly addictive and withdrawal syndromes are horrible.
You can use GHB as well but the same like with xanax - highly addictive so use it wise.
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I do NOT recommend GHB. It is much more dangerous than Xanax. With Xanax you take a pill or two, GHB is so dose specific and difficult to dose, I used to take a sprite cap and fill it halfway, sometimes I would decide to take it and thought the dose was the same as usual, but it was actually a infinitesimal fraction more than usual. I would be unable to move or talk for hours. Not fun, and very dangerous if being used by someone alone and without a tolerance.
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I do NOT recommend GHB. It is much more dangerous than Xanax. With Xanax you take a pill or two, GHB is so dose specific and difficult to dose, I used to take a sprite cap and fill it halfway, sometimes I would decide to take it and thought the dose was the same as usual, but it was actually a infinitesimal fraction more than usual. I would be unable to move or talk for hours. Not fun, and very dangerous if being used by someone alone and without a tolerance.
It is not true. I have been using GHB/GBL since 1997 and it works fine. It is easy to dose.
Just use syringe. 1 ml than after 15 min another one but not take more than 4 ml.
With GBL 1 ml and the 0.5 ml up to 2 ml.
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I do NOT recommend GHB. It is much more dangerous than Xanax. With Xanax you take a pill or two, GHB is so dose specific and difficult to dose, I used to take a sprite cap and fill it halfway, sometimes I would decide to take it and thought the dose was the same as usual, but it was actually a infinitesimal fraction more than usual. I would be unable to move or talk for hours. Not fun, and very dangerous if being used by someone alone and without a tolerance.
It is not true. I have been using GHB/GBL since 1997 and it works fine. It is easy to dose.
Just use syringe. 1 ml than after 15 min another one but not take more than 4 ml.
With GBL 1 ml and the 0.5 ml up to 2 ml.
Makes a lot more sense than the way I dosed it as a stupid teenager, that's for sure! I had no idea what I was doing.
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I do NOT recommend GHB. It is much more dangerous than Xanax. With Xanax you take a pill or two, GHB is so dose specific and difficult to dose, I used to take a sprite cap and fill it halfway, sometimes I would decide to take it and thought the dose was the same as usual, but it was actually a infinitesimal fraction more than usual. I would be unable to move or talk for hours. Not fun, and very dangerous if being used by someone alone and without a tolerance.
It is not true. I have been using GHB/GBL since 1997 and it works fine. It is easy to dose.
Just use syringe. 1 ml than after 15 min another one but not take more than 4 ml.
With GBL 1 ml and the 0.5 ml up to 2 ml.
Makes a lot more sense than the way I dosed it as a stupid teenager, that's for sure! I had no idea what I was doing.
True. First rule of GBL use something to mesure. Never on eye, because it can put you in coma.
I have been experienced terrible withdrawal syndromes after Xanax. I thought I am going to die. Check on the web, you can actually die. Anyway I could not manage so I took GBL and all syndromes gone. Benzos works on GABA system in your brain, GABA A to to precise. GHB/GBL on GABA B but it works anyway.
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Xanax is an obvious candidate.
Since you seem to have a chronic legitimate medical problem, Prozac could be the answer to your issue. Relatively cheap, even off of SR.
DXM at like 150mg is good for lowering inhibitions while still keeping you functional. Perfect for asking out females or if you're supposed to fight somebody. Also insanely easy to acquire.
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There can be a benefit to spending lots of time alone in your room. Lots of famous creative people like writers and artist have had some social anxiety. You don't have to get rid of your anxiety completely, work with it some but don't let it get out of hand and destroy you and don't let drugs destroy you either.
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The best drug would be
1. Oxytocin - to enhance trust, can be found as nasal spray
2. Endorphin - increases pleasure and reduces feeling of stress
http://www.endorphineffect.com/
3. Serotonin - slows you down to engage regular sleep patterns and hunger, relaxing your muscles, increase learning and more
http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/herbsvitaminsad/a/5HTP.htm makes the body produce serotonin, if you are low.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro99/web1/Byrd.html - Serotonin and Its Uses
4. Dopamine reuptage inhibitor or not taking dopamine enhancing drugs
http://www.livestrong.com/article/161531-what-are-the-effects-of-increased-dopamine/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_reuptake_inhibitor
5. Any kind of anti-stress activity, like running, meditation, martial arts, dancing etc., where the body takes priority in exertion.
6. Trust - practicing trust IRL, with the aid of guide
http://trustlifetoday.com/2012/05/28/learning-how-to-trust-the-ultimate-guide/ (just a beginning)
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Admittedly I didn't read through all of the responses tonight - ran out of time.
However, I highly recommend vyvanse for social anxiety issues. It's actually a super awesome side effect (but unnecessary, for me) as I'm already outgoing - but my extremely antisocial, introverted business partner finds it life saving for social gatherings. I will say that for me, already being outgoing, it can get me into trouble with over-sharing. For him, it takes him out of his shell long enough to talk to people around him and actually communicate with other people, not just robots :p
I have tried other variations of ADHD medication like adderall XR, but nothing seems to have this confidence boost like vyvanse does, in my opinion. Of course, since it's the most expensive to acquire ;)
On a non-drug related note, something I tell my business partner all the time to help him is that you may think everyone around you is judging you or noticing you don't fit in, but in reality, we are all really really self-conscious creatures. Which means we're too damn busy thinking about ourselves and our 10 extra lbs or next paycheck to worry about anyone else :) Remember that if you feel a bit overwhelmed with an event.
HTH :)
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personally, i'd try the natural route before going on to heavy-duty pharmaceuticals. kava and kratom are two plants that can really help anxiety, without many (if any) negative side effects. cannabis has also done wonders for me in that respect.
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I've dealt with periods of social anxiety; I haven't read all of this thread, so forgive me if I repeat anything.
I would first try the non-chemical route. There's plenty of info online that provide good tips on going au natural. I started taking certain drugs to help calm myself while playing on stage and came to depend on them for a while.
But hold on, didn't you say you were going to college soon? Brother, you'll find what relaxes you in social settings in no time, because most college campuses are like open air drug markets (exaggerating a bit, but you get my point) ;D
What works for you depends on your personality and what chemicals your body reacts to. Some people become social monsters on uppers, such as Adderral or Cocaine (I'd suggest starting small, i.e. don't smoke crack in the bathroom and come charging out looking for a girl to charm ;)). For some people uppers geeks them out and they get paranoid and/or want to be left alone. I tend to talk a lot when I'm on uppers and like them, I just hate the crash (so I always have a parachute).
Some people love benzos for social anxiety. Xanax/Alprazolam is a favorite and has probably been mentioned a hundred times already. But for some people it puts them to sleep. I had some Xanax last month, and gave it to 3 people (differing doses from 1-2mg) that were visiting. Two hung out to have drinks and we talked for hours, while the third slept soundly on my couch 45 min after taking 1 mg. This has always been one of my favorites, but it has also gotten me into trouble & made me do stupid things when taken irresponsibly. So dose very carefully!
Beta blockers, such as propranolol, can also help. Even though they weren't created for social or general anxiety (like Xanax was) it's used by a LOT of classical musicians for exactly this reason. In the 70's a vascular surgeon researched the drug and its affect on musicians; he found that it not only lowered their heart rates & blood pressure, but led to performances that musical judges deemed superior to those who took placebos (if you're interested look up The New York Times articles entitled 'Better Playing Through Chemistry'). I've used it for that reason, but more on that down below.
MDMA/Ecstasy is also considered a social drug, but I wouldn't suggest taking it in public until you know how you react to it. You're not going to win any popularity contests by stroking the shutters and proclaiming your love for them. I've rolled a handful of times, and you love everything and everybody. That can be a good AND a bad thing, so if you want to experiment do it with people you trust first in a controlled setting. Kind of like LSD. Some would say that's being too careful, and they may be right. I just value my reputation too much.
Personally, I've used them all throughout my high school, college, and post college years. (not always to battle stage fright or social anxiety, obviously). Alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, heroin, benzodiazepines, MDMA, LSD, well, you get the idea.
I don't play in front of others that much any more, but occasionally I'm called on to fill in for a band member (I play a few instruments) or I just feel like having fun playing in front of people. I try to do it chemical free (public speaking, which I've had to do over the years, has helped a GREAT deal in this area), but when you're playing for a decent number of people you CAN'T have your hands shake (if you need them, of course). So if I feel the need, I'll take a small dose of Xanax & a beta blocker. I've even mixed in an upper occasionally.
This is ME, though. I've had years of experience and I know how my body reacts to most drugs. I'm not suggesting that you mix anything without know how they interact with each other. When taking drugs, A + B does NOT equal AB, it equals C (it doesn't merely combine the two effects, it creates an entirely new one).
Most importantly, have fun! You'd be surprised at how many people are just as nervous as you are, if not more. It's very common. One of my close friends was always so smooth around the girls when we were young, and one day I asked him about it. He said, "Dude, I just imagine her taking the biggest, smelliest shit. You know that 'I'm taking a huge dump look' when you're sitting there dropping a bomb? Well, that's what I picture as I'm talking to her." I still think that's a little gross to this day, but hey, it worked for him. So find what works for you!
Good luck 8)
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personally, i'd try the natural route before going on to heavy-duty pharmaceuticals. kava and kratom are two plants that can really help anxiety, without many (if any) negative side effects. cannabis has also done wonders for me in that respect.
I'd never consider something safe just because it occurs in nature.
Products that naturally occur are not safe than synthetics by definition. Consider someone with moderate pain, that could choose to take a perfectly safe and non-addictive synthetic like paracetamol. The option nature provides would probably be smoking dried poppy sap, which while being natural comes down to taking morphine. The other option from nature would be sialic acid, which causes nasty GI side effects and was converted to aspirin a century ago because of those problems.
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personally, i'd try the natural route before going on to heavy-duty pharmaceuticals. kava and kratom are two plants that can really help anxiety, without many (if any) negative side effects. cannabis has also done wonders for me in that respect.
I'd never consider something safe just because it occurs in nature.
Products that naturally occur are not safe than synthetics by definition. Consider someone with moderate pain, that could choose to take a perfectly safe and non-addictive synthetic like paracetamol. The option nature provides would probably be smoking dried poppy sap, which while being natural comes down to taking morphine. The other option from nature would be sialic acid, which causes nasty GI side effects and was converted to aspirin a century ago because of those problems.
yeah, i know what you mean. i was just speaking in general. there are many natural poisons, for example... but i'd definitely say kava and kratom (among other herbal alternatives) are safer than most pharmaceuticals! apologies for generalizing. :P
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You guys need to understand that, going by his OP, this guy needs something he can take chronically. Beznos are Rxed to people susceptible to panic attacks, taking them chronically would be very dangerous, in terms of addiction potential, not to mention the financial cost associated with benzo use.
If you're going to be taking something every day for a chronic issue, you're going to want something with sustainable use. You have to options here: Beta-blockers and SSRI.
SSRIs: You already said you're taking Zoloft, but maybe it's just not clicking with you. Due to just the overall complex nature of SSRIs and their mechanism of action, you might want to look into others, such as Laxapro, Prozac, or Celexa.
Beta-blockers: The primary examples of these are bisoprolol and propranolol. These level out your personality, calm you down, relieve tension, and reduce nervousness. These are so effective that professional musicians often take them before giving a performance, since the effects are sedating in a way that doesn't debilitate you, but instead makes you more confident.
Pretty much every drug in those classes is legal to possess, but obtaining them generally requires an Rx. If you don't want to be at the mercy of a doctor's whims, and/or you don't have health insurance, you're best bet would probably be this listing: http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/item/be8a508091
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since members here have taken the initiative to also suggest natural approaches to alleviating social anxiety
I do want to clarify, in light of my earlier posts that comes off very rxn heavy, that routine exercise (does not have to be intense by any means, just more or less consistent)
has by far the most reliable evidence in supporting bran health and anxiety
so anything that I suggest (from MY personal experience, please keep in mind everyone reacts differently biochemically) with pills this or that, should always be augmented with an active and rather disciplined lifestyle as well, for optimum resolution I suppose, and (aerobic) exercise is one of very few (if not only) thing that seems to be a universal suggestions that provides benefits for everyone. That said, the main reason for this post is to highlight the consistency needed behind exercise. much like how one's brain reacts to a particular medication regimen, the brain also reacts biochemically to the chemical released during exercise. so for one to continually receive benefits from aerobic exercise, one simply has to continually do it, as a lifestyle habit, perhaps unfortunate news for those looking for hat one time magic bullet. but as an earlier post in this thread clearly states (and I completely agree), there is no magic bullet for such a complex and variegated symptom such as social anxiety.
NY Times article on this (perhaps not so novel) reflection on the need to continually exercise for brain benefits:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/09/to-keep-the-brain-benefits-of-exercise-keep-exercising/
best regards
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I don't think its about a magic bullet at all.
Self inflicting pain through exercise can very well be effective, resulting in some release of endorphins to cope with the situation.
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I think Suboxone might just be my silver bullet.
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Strenuous exercise does wonders for me. I'm talking P90X, Pull-ups, Push-ups, Workout to Exhaustion type stuff.
Fight club is what turns men made out of play dough into men made of wood.
Then you will not fear people, people will fear you (or at least you can think of it that way). There is nothing wrong with you. Be fearless.
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If you can put that picture in your mind to strengthen you, that would be a very good approach.
Most fears people are really troubled by are not that rational though. Things like agoraphobia develop in all kinds of peole, including those physically very fit. This is the irrational part of fear - being afraid of things that cannot actually harm you when looked at rationally. You can be a 10 foot tall killing machine and stiill fear social interaction.
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If you can put that picture in your mind to strengthen you, that would be a very good approach.
Most fears people are really troubled by are not that rational though. Things like agoraphobia develop in all kinds of peole, including those physically very fit. This is the irrational part of fear - being afraid of things that cannot actually harm you when looked at rationally. You can be a 10 foot tall killing machine and stiill fear social interaction.
Ah, perfectly put, Ben. Thank you for saying what I couldn't say properly. :) +1
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I like MDMA - a dose around 200mg on a night spent with either myself, or someone very close to me.
Just to reflect on everything and have perspective. It always pulls me out of an 'anxious cycle' for a good 2-3 months, it's such a beautiful drug when used properly.
While it's not something you take everyday, just the one session can really do wonders for months ahead.
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MDMA. You'll be chatting away before you know it. Not only that but you'll want to too. Plus it's just awesome in general. It'd be good cuz the empathic side of it. But no more than once a month.
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If you have serious chronic anxiety I recommend you steer clear of MDMA, Psychedelics and most of the stimulants...
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Make an appointment to see a therapist (NOT a psychiatrist, you actually saw a psychiatrist, therapists CAN NOT prescribe any drugs)
Make sure the therapist you meet with has experience with patients suffering from social anxiety. Then if he or she believes you need medication they can refer you to a good psychiatrist., and they will be far more likely to give you good stuff, since you were referred in. When you go into see a psychiatrist as a young person, without having tried therapy first thepsychiatrist is very unlikely to prescribe you much more than an SSRI like zoloft. Many psychiatrists so talk with you during your sessions, but they are not really qualified to help you work through your issues the way a therapist can
A Psychologist is a therapist, not a doctor. They can not prescribe drugs, ever!
They do talk therapy and behavior modification techniques exercises that promote positive thinking and help change bad patterns. They conduct group therapy and help their clients learn coping skills and techniques to relax and meditate. The focus of a therapist is on changing your patterns of thinking and improving your self esteem.
A Psychiatrist is a medical doctor who attended the exact same medical school that your regular doctor did. He took class with future Heart Surgeons, Pediatricians, Neurologists and so on. They all took the same classes in Med School. Once they graduate Med school the doctors pick what field they want to apply for residency in. So when it came time for the Psychiatrists residency, he went into Psychiatry...your Primary Care Doc went into Family Practice. They are not trained as therapists, they are in their jobs to medicate and suggest medical treatments to those who need it.
I have horrible social anxiety and anxiety in general. But a good therapist or a friend who is sympathetic is so important. Maybe see if there are any support groups or free group therapy sessions in your area for people with anxiety and depression...you might be surprised at what is out there, and it might just help. You never know if you don't try. :)
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Perhaps if you are open to it, 'talk therapy' can be beneficial.
I would not overestimate its potential though. If you suffer from an irrational fear and know so, being told that is the case by some external party will not help all that much, You will get re-affirmed something you already knew to begin with, If you considered your fear to be rational, you would not seek treatment, you'd just be afraid and take measures to limit vulnerability.
Irrational fears often strike intelligent people, that when looking at things analytically, will readily admit they feel fear in situations where there actually is no rational cause to be afraid. They problem is that they still feal afraid though, despite fully knowing that the realistic risk to their well being is negligible It is the irrational factor that is hard to cope with, not the fear itself.
If you look at a very common fear like that of heights, the factors become clear easily. If you were required to walk on a 2 foot wide path just an inch above ground level you could easily do that for 100 yards. If you put that exact same walkway between two buildings, in zero wind conditions, but 10 stories above ground level, most people would not transverse it. The required task is identical, but the consequences of failing it go up from a hurt ankle to certain death.
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Well, I have a bit of experience with these issues. I had beed diagnosed by both a neurologist and a pychiatrist (however that's properly spelled) with Generalized Anxiety Disorder and Social Anxiety Disorder with Disphoria (a low to mid level) depression. I was prescribed a few SSRI's (not simultaneously, we worked on several 'til We found one that worked well. Celexa, Effexor and finally Lexapro were the SSRI's, with Lexapro working quite well with no side effects at all (for me). I also suffered from panic attacks (severe ones) for which I was prescribed Xanax. These all worked extremely well for me (note: as someone stated a few pp up everyone is different - Zoloft was absolutely horrible for me, for example). I took these (legitimately under a doctor's care) for approx 6-9 years with excellent results - I'm rather shy, but after a few years I was entertaining the idea of joining a nudist resort - I didn't, but gave considerable thought to it.
It should be noted that Xanax is, as previously stated, bext for short term anxiety issues (panic attacks, for which it works very, very well), but is is very addictive and the withdraws (if not tapered down gradually) can (and did with me) cause Grand Mal siezures - very bad while driving or the like, obviously. Also, the SSRI's, if that is the route you would take, are a multi-year therapy, perhaps permanently - this it best decided by a medical doctor.
There is help available for this, very effective help, so don't fret too much nor fall into depression - lots of people have these issues, and the pharamsuticals (sp) are getting quite sophisticated. Do avoid meth, I'm sorry, that seems like a very bad idea (unless a real doc prescribes an amphetamine-based med. Hang in there, this is a far from hopeless situation.